80 series signal flow?

Neve’s founding father was Rupert Neve, who formed Neve in 1961. Since then, things have gotten, shall we say, interesting..

Moderator: ScotchMcNeilAudio

80 series signal flow?

Postby QUEEF BAG » Sun Aug 29, 2010 9:11 pm

I am looking for info for a neve - 8048 is closest model # - that era is so hard to pin numbers on...
30 in 16 buss 24 ch monitoring (1081 inpt 1949 switching)

here is my issue: no audio on monitor returns 11 & 12
meters 11 & 12 show signal. input section gets signal from the line in no problem

foldback mixer in meter bridge section IS getting the tape return. but not the monitor section, except for
a faint and thin signal.

what there is of the manual has nothing on signal flow, block diagram, or any basic "signal goes from
here to here via"
I figure so many of the consoles they made around this time were mostly custom, there may not have been much
of a standard configuration. I never have seen that sort of info in a neve manual for the 80 series.

Here is my question: where does the multi-track return split? i mean the tape return is getting to foldback...
it must split some where to get to the monitor section.

i swapped the middle bank of 8 monitors with another one, same problem.

i did not have my scope or audio handset to probe the connectors to the mon. section, that would have been nice.

any wiring info available on these puppies? or any advice? also i haven't found any info of the relays for this desk
either.

thanks for any light you can shed
QUEEF BAG
Analog Enthusiast
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby noeqplease » Mon Aug 30, 2010 11:45 am

Hi,

I'd suggest you do get a scope to troubleshoot.
I'd start at the patchbay and work my way into the console from there. Be very strict about how you follow the signal path and you will find the problem. Dork around over different sections without a good roadmap, and be lost for hours.
You'd be surprised how many issues can crop up in the patchbay and initial wiring to and from the console, especially with older cabling.
Yes, most 8048 and 80 series consoles were one offs / custom / modified later on.
That's why it's crucial to always try to keep the manuals for these with the console.

Cheers
noeqplease
Analog Enthusiast
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:47 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby QUEEF BAG » Mon Aug 30, 2010 2:48 pm

yeah...that's why i'm lookin' for a road map
QUEEF BAG
Analog Enthusiast
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby noeqplease » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:30 pm

Hi,

I can copy my 80 series one, there's some basic signal flow charts somewhere in there, it might help.

This one was also a 8048, but with no monitor section, it was an all inline 50 channel beast.

Let me know if this will help at all.

Cheers
noeqplease
Analog Enthusiast
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:47 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby QUEEF BAG » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:14 pm

that would be awesome... none of that info has survived the years in their manual.

i am really trying to figure out the distribution of the tape return signal...
i don't know if it splits off a wiring harness of at the relay banks, which again i have no documentation for
QUEEF BAG
Analog Enthusiast
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby uma_guma » Mon Sep 06, 2010 7:50 pm

Hello,

I hope I can be some sort of assistance. I have an 8048 manual in my Neve docs pile, but of course it is missing the Block and Console two line drawings, as most of them seem to be.

A manual for a 80 series without a monitor panel probably won't help you too much either.

Depending on the factory built configuration of your desk, and gosh knows what changes 'mods' or whatever has been done afterwards, which are never documented for some reason, an original 2 line or block diagram might not help too much.

I would suggest trying the following.

I am assuming that everything was fine with mon returns 11 and 12, up until recently, correct?

I am also assuming that mon return meters 11 and 12 show signal, the foldback mixer in the meter bridge is able to mix signal from mon returns 11 and 12 to its output buss(s)

and that you can't route audio from mon returns 11 and 12 to any of the monitor panel output busses, correct?

and all the rest of the monitor returns and monitor output busses still work correctly?

If that is all the case, then the problem must be in the desk somewhere after the monitor return take off point for the meter matrix switching and foldback send point, and the monitor panel output busses for monitor returns 11 and 12 only.

It sounds like it could be a master monitoring mode switching issue. Try flipping between the different monitor modes a bunch of times, and see if it kicks in. This of course is just a tell tale, if you get lucky and it does come back to life.

Go around to the back of the Neve and find the reed relay matrix panel. There will be a perspex covered sheet of paper on the relay card retaining panel that say what each relay card does. Find the card that is labeled for monitor tracks 11 and 12 (not the card for the meter mode switching for 11 and 12) and swap it with one from monitor returns that you know worked.

If the problem followed then you have a bad relay card. That is the most likely suspect. Dirt and card seating as well, of course. Check all that. Check the seating of all the cards while you are in there, and drop the panel and check for debris, loose wire strands, lead clippings, or anything shorting anything out etc, any bad looking or heated looking components, etc.

Also check the seating on all the Siemens silver can relays. Just for routine. They are likely on another panel somewhere.

If you find some bad cards or dodgy Siemens relays, I have some spare relay cards, and a substantial pile of original Siemens relays, including at least one new old stock in an original Neve spares baggie. Along with a bunch of other 80 series parts, some NOS in Neve spares baggies, from a few smaller desks and modules I parted out over the years.

The fact that both 11 and 12 went down at the same time in exactly the same way is a very important clue.

That means whatever it was is something common to both channels (a card that is labeled for both, etc)

Pull out and check the monitor panel for returns 11 and 12 for anything that looks out of place.

Also check the seating and reseat the big grey rectangular Painton connectors on the back of the appropriate monitor panel. (I am assuming you have three separate 8 channel monitor panels) that is a long shot, since both channels are affected equally.

Again, I hope I can be a help, it is stretching the memory pretty far, do lot's of modules and racking the last number of years, but very very few full consoles around my area.

I am a vintage service technician so I don't usually get gear lust, but I have always wanted an 8048 badly. No studio, just want to look at it, and listen to music through it.

James
uma_guma
Analog Owner
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:24 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby QUEEF BAG » Thu Sep 09, 2010 6:39 pm

james-
thanks! last time i visited the console, i briefly checked out the relays, mainly just finding them, as
it was a quick service call at the beginning of a project for an unrelated incident.

i think that's where the issue will be, though the labels at first glance look a little cryptic.

it seems like i have never seen one of these that has not been modded. at least that i can remember.
and documentation of mods over the years seems to be an exception as opposed to the rule.

this one has no stereo bus. for mixing you just assign to a couple of groups then assign those to either monitor 1&2
or 3&4. kinda of odd. though it also appears some of the A range desks were like that too.

checked the connectors when i swapped monitor modules, that doesn't seem to be it.
the fact that they come and go together IS the clue...now if i only had a clue!
it seems that the relay section is the most likely, both the number of issues common to an
area like that, and that's where the tape return signal goes first, i believe. that may be about
the only place where channels are handled in pairs.
QUEEF BAG
Analog Enthusiast
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby uma_guma » Tue Sep 14, 2010 6:49 am

Very likely the problem will be in the reed relay matrix.

I would almost bet that you will find a switching card for both monitor tracks 11 and 12. If it is an intermittent problem it is likely edge contacts, or take a close look at the amphenols, they tend to dry up and crack.

The monitor channels get signal from the line returns, the buss outs or the sync outs (ind switchable)(in OD mode) any signal that goes to the monitor channels is going through a reed relay.

The signal to the foldback mixer is taken before this (or from another source, see below)

The Neve's were set up for early Studer A80 Multitracks, that had a separate line output for the sync, and no input monitor switching.

So you had to have a whole separate bank of transformer balanced ins to handle the sync outs, and a way to manually switch between them on the monitor panel. That is what OD mode, and the OD buttons are all about.

My first multitrack experience was a 24trk A80 Mk2 widebody, that didn't have the switching. It came in handy later when getting into 80 series Neve's.

I think the Mk4 had it built in, and most all other machines came from the factory with single line outs, and switching. A lot of Studers were modded too, to incorporate this.

Consequently you don't 'really' need the OD sync inputs, and can just monitor through the monitor panel, and let the machine handle it's modes.

I have seen a few lash-ups where the light dawned "hey 24 free LO31267 Line Input Transfomers" and they get pulled from the desk. Unfortunately you then have to get the feed for the cue buss mixer from somewhere. Creativity abounds. Jumping the foldback (cue on American desks) over from the main monitor channel, as I have seen, screws up the impedances good, if the panel is all passive.

I think by the 8048, they had started to buffer the panel.

I can't recall a group to monitor assign on an 8048. But like you said, most of the desks were custom, and then modded as time went by.

Recording techniques and desk usage changed over the years, and rerouting signal flow and changing things is really easy on a Neve, as it is such a well thought out modular system, and the wire is all right there. Really easy if you pay attention to impedance, level, and passive mixing theory. That seems to be the big catch. More often than not.

None of the early Neve's had a separate assignable mix buss in the modern sense, from the factory. Lots added after. I am not sure about the 8048, but some of the other class 'A' ones only sent to the monitor outputs (usually quad, as in quadraphonic LP) from the monitor panel, and had no group assign to the monitor output busses.

Plenty of different ways to fry that one too, and extra's like a pre fade insert, or a stereo master fader.

With a 16 buss not having a true mix buss isn't a big deal, as you only lose a pair of busses to do a mix. The group assign to monitor is part of an original panel or module?

Still not as ideal as having a stereo buss right across the console, and having every channel and monitor assignable to it.

James
uma_guma
Analog Owner
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:24 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby QUEEF BAG » Thu Oct 07, 2010 4:22 pm

OK it was reed relay #9
swapped it and relay #8 since the bad line in the relay
are not used in slot 8.

no block diagram until you read the whole freakin' wire list and pinouts for the
relays etc.

did a lot of clean up and recapped the last (almost) section, the 1272s. got the
switching modules done last spring.

she sounds better than ever. yea!

thanks for all the info. the next mods for the old gal are gonna be a mix buss insert
and then finding the sync inputs for the monitor section and trying to put those in the patchbay
for more inputs during mixdown.

but those mods are gonna be documented in the book!
QUEEF BAG
Analog Enthusiast
 
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Aug 29, 2010 8:25 pm

Re: 80 series signal flow?

Postby uma_guma » Thu Oct 07, 2010 8:49 pm

Oh excellent. Great that you got it.

Sounds like you got it to work out without having to replace a reed relay. Or a card. If you need a spare good card or want a mucked up card with one or two good reed relays on it, drop me a line.

Let me know the card number.

They used a wiring schedule for the reed relay bucket, hmmm okay, kind of a pain. There wasn't a sheet behind a perspex panel that said what card was what? That causes extra headaches.

There is presently no pre fade insert? Or master fader? If that is the case,

For a mix buss insert you will need to add a pair of 1271's to the desk, to facilitate the master pre fade insert. Then the stereo master fader goes in the 1271 path, and the 1271 balanced out become the main buss out.

If you want to stay with a quad output buss, then you will need 4 1271's and a quad master fader.

If your console has separate sync inputs, they probably feed a bank of 31267's, and then to the cue mixer.

This one sounds custom for sure, as regular 8048's had the cue knobs as part of the monitor panel.

I can't think of an direct way to get the sync ins, if there are indeed separate ins for that (I might have transposed a couple things in my memory - I would need a completely original early Studer A80 to verify. Don't have one lying around)
to the monitor busses. You would need more monitor channels.

If it is an 8048 the monitor will be arranged in a '4 square' pattern to the immediate right of the master area. You mentioned it was a 24trk monitor, if so there will be a blank panel, in the 4 square. The monitor panels you confirmed were individual 8 trk panels?

Why not just get a 4th monitor panel, and go up to the max possible 32 Monitors?

Could you post a pic of the desk? This one sounds cool.

James
uma_guma
Analog Owner
 
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Sep 06, 2010 5:24 pm


Return to Neve Recording Consoles

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

 
Mr Patchbay sells patchbays, tt/bantam cables and more